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Gurth  
#31 Posted : Friday, November 17, 2017 1:30:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Guillermo Go to Quoted Post

It is a threat to constitutional rights if the debate includes recommending for semi-autos in any form to be banned, as I've seen many people call for. That would make a hell of a lot of guns illegal, hunting and self-defense guns I might add. When people say you don't need a semi-automatic weapon, they clearly have never had to deal with the threat of their house getting broken into at gunpoint. Guess what? I don't want to worry about having to reload in that scenario. No laws being proposed as of late would stop any shootings that have happened. Democrats are cowards on this issue. Same as Republicans are on the environment.

Australia is frequently brought up by mainstream democrats...Australian gun control was a mandatory buyback....Confiscation in simpler terms....Tyranny in the simplest terms.



First off, when the assault weapons ban was in place, it was challenged several times in the courts on the basis of constitutionality. The challenges lost every time.

It's simply not unconstitutional to put limits on what we can own as citizens. You can disagree with it – that's your right, but you can't call it unconstitutional or a threat to the constitution. That is an NRA talking point/rallying cry and the courts disagree with it.

After the AWB expired and when Obama first became President, Dems also controlled both houses. I believe a few talked about renewing the ban, yet nothing happened. No new gun laws that I can remember at all.

Dems had full power, yet nothing got done.


To your other points…

Do you live under the realistic threat of your home being invaded at gunpoint? Of course it could be said that it's possible, but is it even remotely likely?

Can you cite examples of this happening at a rate that should make me concerned about this happening to me?

The vast majority that I've ever heard about were where the home invaders believed that there would be drugs and cash on hand. In other words, they were targeting what they thought was a drug dealer.


It's interesting and perplexing to me that some will sell their souls (figuratively) over extremely unlikely hypotheticals and ignore or marginalize things that are actually happening.

The likelihood of one's home being invaded and the major issue being not having enough rounds to fight back is off the charts not going to happen. How often are we even near our guns when we're in our homes?


The environment is actually under threat.

I can cite numerous actual examples of this where the GOP has control.

It's what they do. They side with business and donors over natural resources.


And the whole Australia Gun Laws thing is just another red meat Sharia Law worry bandied about to snare low information voters. I'm sure you can cite lefty whack jobs that are talking about it, but that's a far cry from finding enough lawmakers and a President and a Supreme Court to make it happen.

Dem lawmakers are hunters too and have lots of constituents that want to own guns for both hunting and self defense. A gun ban or forced buy back is never going to happen.

I'm not for a ban on semi-autos. I don't see how that would really change anything. A couple buddies have AR-15s and I've shot them. I don't see them as a bogeyman.

I would never base my vote solely on my buddies' right to own one though or a hypothetical threat to that right. Way too many other important things are happening for me to prioritize that over all of the other stuff.
Private correspondence at: jkschind "at" tds.net
thanks 1 user thanked Gurth for this useful post.
weiliwen on 11/17/2017(UTC)
Guillermo  
#32 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 3:10:23 AM(UTC)
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Gurth, do you include Hillary and Obama in the "lefty whackjob" category? Hillary Clinton, when asked about Australian gun control, literally said, "The Australia example is worth looking at". Barack Obama has made specific reference to Australia when asked about gun control. Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York, when discussing semi-automatic weapons, literally said, "Confiscation could be an option" and "mandatory sale to the state could be an option". Haha. What a crock. The state trying to buy back what they never owned in the first place? Hogwash. U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein has expressed support for a compulsory buyback. We have seen respected newspapers such as the New York Times literally call for repealing the 2nd Ammendment. The Boston Globe, another highly respected publication, just put out an article titled "Hand over your weapons". I think I've listed enough examples of support for this disgusting behavior.

How about the Heller Supreme Court Case, since you mentioned the Supreme Court. The Court only voted 5-4 in favor of being able to use a gun within your own home for self-defense. It also disagreed with Washington D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned shotguns and rifles be kept, "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock". 5-4. One vote away from saying we didn't have the right to self-defense. If that doesn't piss you off then I have nothing more to say to you.

Regarding the likelihood of needing to use a gun to defend oneself and your home, to say it is off the charts not likely to happen is irresponsible. Have I personally ever had to do it? No. Thank God. But...I would need more than two hands to count the number of houses in my neighborhood and even more the number in the entire town that have been broken into. There is a major prescription drug problem, people are desperate and will go to any length, including breaking in to your house. It was only last year a man answered his door at 5 o'clock in the morning, only to be shot dead in his doorway. I've had cars broken into outside my home. Garage has been broken into. Need I go on? To insinuate simply because I haven't had to yet use a gun to defend myself that I"m crazy for wanting to be able to so is incredibly insulting. Maybe you guys live in fantasy land, but I do not.

I know the environment and public land are under attack. It makes me furious. But if you don't agree that the 2nd Ammendment is also under attack then there is nothing more to say. The evidence is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's not propaganda. It's a fact.
Gurth  
#33 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 4:13:02 AM(UTC)
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Obviously, this is a hot button for you and we can just agree to disagree.

A few things though...


First off, good God, where the heck do you live? Sounds like a dicey area/town.

We used to live in a dicey-ish area. Lived there for the first ten years of my older son's life. There was section 8 housing around the corner and up a block from my house. Was okay when we bought the place, but the city cleaned up our most notorious neighborhood and many of those fine folks moved close to us.

I was on the laptop working one summer night on our screened porch and heard a 17 year old get shot to death in the street 2 blocks from my house. POP... POP... POP POP POP!!!

Here's a link to an article about the trial:

Murder Near Gurth's Old House

In an odd coincidence, the accused was from my home city.

Anyway, after the shots, locked the doors, turned off the lights armed myself and watched out the windows for a while until I was sure it was safe.

See, our back yard was a convenient path for people running from the police and it was possible that someone might be looking for somewhere to hide

Other things happened over those ten years. My kid's bike was stolen from our garage. My car was stolen. A car full of people crashed into the tree in our front yard and scattered in ten different directions coz the car was stolen.

We were on a corner lot and our bedrooms were along the side street. A car would pull up and park and then a few minutes later, sure enough, a second car would pull up and they'd do their deal and drive away. A lot of times, right in the middle of the day.

I took to walking out when I'd see them with my dslr and 200mm lens and showing it to them and they'd always drive away quick. Probably not a good idea, but my family was nearby and if by chance the deal went bad and they started shooting each other...

Heroine addicts would also park along our side street and go score at the section 8 apartments. Had a couple need an adrenaline shot from police/emts when they would pass out after getting back to their vehicles.

I'm sure there's more that I'm not recalling right now, but you get the picture. A real fantasy land for sure.


Secondly...

Nowhere did I say that you couldn't or shouldn't own a gun. Where did you get that from what I wrote?

I said that placing limits upon what someone can own is not unconstitutional.

And it isn't. There are already limits. The ever obvious... you can't own a bazooka or an m-16.


Thirdly...

No one currently in power is doing anything to enact buybacks or the Australian plan.

It will never happen.


If politicians were as afraid of the environmental lobby as they are of the gun lobby, the threats to the environment would stop too.

They're not though because there are very few environmental one-issue voters.


.

Edited by user Saturday, November 18, 2017 4:42:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Private correspondence at: jkschind "at" tds.net
Guillermo  
#34 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:00:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gurth Go to Quoted Post
Obviously, this is a hot button for you and we can just agree to disagree.

A few things though...


First off, good God, where the heck do you live? Sounds like a dicey area/town.

We used to live in a dicey-ish area. Lived there for the first ten years of my older son's life. There was section 8 housing around the corner and up a block from my house. Was okay when we bought the place, but the city cleaned up our most notorious neighborhood and many of those fine folks moved close to us.

I was on the laptop working one summer night on our screened porch and heard a 16 year old get shot to death in the street 2 blocks from my house. POP... POP... POP POP POP!!!

Here's a link to an article about the trial:

Murder Near Gurth's Old House

In an odd coincidence, the accused was from my home city.

Anyway, after the shots, locked the doors, turned off the lights armed myself and watched out the windows for a while until I was sure it was safe.

See, our back yard was a convenient path for people running from the police and it was possible that someone might be looking for somewhere to hide

Other things happened over those ten years. My kid's bike was stolen from our garage. My car was stolen. A car full of people crashed into the tree in our front yard and scattered in ten different directions coz the car was stolen.

We were on a corner lot and our bedrooms were along the side street. A car would pull up and park and then a few minutes later, sure enough, a second car would pull up and they'd do their deal and drive away. A lot of times, right in the middle of the day.

I took to walking out when I'd see them with my dslr and 200mm lens and showing it to them and they'd always drive away quick. Probably not a good idea, but my family was nearby and if by chance the deal went bad and they started shooting each other...

Heroine addicts would also park along our side street and go score at the section 8 apartments. Had a couple need an adrenaline shot from police/emts when they would pass out after getting back to their vehicles.

I'm sure there's more that I'm not recalling right now, but you get the picture. A real fantasy land for sure.


Secondly...

Nowhere did I say that you couldn't or shouldn't own a gun. Where did you get that from what I wrote?

I said that placing limits upon what someone can own is not unconstitutional.

And it isn't. There are already limits. The ever obvious... you can't own a bazooka or an m-16.


Thirdly...

No one currently in power is doing anything to enact buybacks or the Australian plan.

It will never happen.


If politicians were as afraid of the environmental lobby as they are of the gun lobby, the threats to the environment would stop too.

They're not though because there are very few environmental one-issue voters.


.

We'll agree to disagree, as you said.

Only points I'd like to make are:

First off...
To say that low odds of your house ever getting broken into means that you don't need to worry about it is insulting to people who have had to defend themselves. You think someone in that scenario is thinking "boy, the odds of this happening were so low"? The Cops are only a phone call away, only a mere couple minutes away to here folks tell it...except when they aren't and you're screwed if you can't take matters into your hands. I'm just not sure why you and Weilewen felt the need to bring that up as you say you both support the right to own guns for self-defense. That is the issue I had with that.


Second...
I did not say nor do I think you don't believe in gun ownership. I only brought up the Supreme Court case in response to your mention of the lack of a Supreme Court that was willing to re-interpret gun rights. They were 1 vote away from saying the 2nd ammendment didn't guarantee your right to self-defense with a gun in your own home. That's way too close for comfort and is certainly not just a pipe dream spewed by "the gun lobby" as folks call it.

Third...
I know no one currently is doing anything to enact an Australian-style gun program...My only point originally in bringing that up was that a sitting president and presidential candidate expressing support for that type of program turned a lot of people away from the Democratic Party. That is more of a suggestion for the future than a criticism to the party. As you say, most likely it will never happen, but the mere hint of it costs them plenty of voters that would otherwise vote in their favor. Jim Webb would have wiped the floor with Trump.

Edited by user Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:01:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Guillermo  
#35 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 1:31:36 PM(UTC)
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Thank you Bob for finally admitting you don’t think I should be allowed to own a weapon for self-defense. Keep up that rhetoric and then keep wondering how a guy like Trump got elected. If you have a problem with people owning guns for self-defense I suggest you work on electing folks who agree with you and will enact laws outlawing firearm ownership. Then you can be on the first team going door to door trying to collect them. See how that works for ya Bob. I wish all anti-gun folks were as honest. Then we could start skipping the bullshit and let it all come to a head and reveal who the real authoritarians are.
Guillermo  
#36 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 1:41:45 PM(UTC)
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Looks like Bob deleted that post. Yeah, I wouldn’t want my name connected to that flaming pile of trash either. Perhaps if he lived on the other side of Chicago he wouldn’t be so ignorant. Not everyone resides in a neat little suburb.

Edited by user Saturday, November 18, 2017 2:04:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

weiliwen  
#37 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:59:12 PM(UTC)
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I admitted no such thing. I exposed the farce that is your excuse that you need arms for self-defense.

You have now descended to insults, which does your argument no good at all.
Bob Williams, "Weiliwen"
weiliwen  
#38 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 6:01:01 PM(UTC)
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And back to the subject of the thread: Rivers of a Lost Coast

This shows what happens when we don't pay attention to the environment, and when we allow big business (in this case, forestry, vineyards, and power generation) to take precedence over the environment.
Bob Williams, "Weiliwen"
Guillermo  
#39 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 9:45:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: weiliwen Go to Quoted Post
I admitted no such thing. I exposed the farce that is your excuse that you need arms for self-defense.

You have now descended to insults, which does your argument no good at all.


You literally said, “Self-defense is not a valid excuse to own a weapon”. Not really sure how else to take it. I don’t live in Lincolnshire Bob. Typical Chicago bullshit. Wonder why most of the state hates your guts.

Is hunting ok as long as I make sure to cower in fear and not use them during a break-in at 3 AM?

Again...keep wondering why radical lefties can’t get elected.


Still wondering why you deleted that post...

Edited by user Saturday, November 18, 2017 9:52:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

weiliwen  
#40 Posted : Saturday, November 18, 2017 10:20:08 PM(UTC)
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You are 100% correct. I said that.

I did not say that self defense weapons should not be allowed. In fact, I have said the opposite in earlier posts. I just said it's not a legitimate reason why you need firearms. It's a red herring. The GOP and far right, of which your statements suggest you are a member, use this emotional but totally false reason to appeal to folks' fear, when, in FACT there is no such threat. The far right peddle in fear mongering, and either you are a proponent of this, or a victim of it. Not me.

You want firearms, fine. Find a legitimate reason why; there are plenty. This is not one of them.
Bob Williams, "Weiliwen"
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