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rschmidt  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 4:16:44 AM(UTC)
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Nice tranquil pic, it looks tropical...sunny...warmmmmm.......

Fuk the polar vortex!

R
Hoggies  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 5:03:52 AM(UTC)
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Anybody else do the breath hold when you have a fish out of the water?
Guillermo  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 5:31:24 AM(UTC)
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A study of rainbow trout mortality easily found on Google found that 88% of them survived release when they were never removed from the water. The fish that were held out for 30 seconds saw their survival rate drop to 63 %. Fish out for a minute dropped to 28%.

It would seem not taking them out of the water should be the ideal way to do it, if possible, though I'm guilty of violating this myself every now and then. In the instances where I cannot accomplish this I typically have them back within 5 seconds, but almost never more than 10. If I'm working on a fish and I know it's taking too long, I'll just keep it.

Based on this and most other studies I've seen, if you can manage a perfect release without removing the fish from the water, it's likely about 9 in every 10 fish give or take a half a fish will make it. Keep that same fish out for any length of time and the odds likely go down by the second. Out for 15 seconds maybe drops that survival rate to 75 %, and of course out for 30 or more down even more.

These numbers are another reason why on days where the fish are really biting I'll stop at 20 fish or so when I know upwards of 50 or even 100 could be had. Even if you do everything perfectly, it's likely a 50 fish day results in anywhere from 2-5 dead fish, essentially a limit of trout depending on the water. Philosophically speaking, it would seem that day would have been as equally productive and perhaps less damaging to the fishery if you had simply caught a limit immediately, harvested them, and quit fishing. Of course on a C&R water this doesn't apply though.

It's on days like that where the question always pops into my head "How many fish do I really need to catch?".
Gurth  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 12:06:36 PM(UTC)
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I just don't buy it. At that rate, the streams would see a significant decline in numbers over the course of a season.

And we'd see dead fish.

If we're killing 1 in 10 (best case) of every fish we hook, we shouldn't be doing this.

And for any of us who handle fish correctly, there are many more who don't.



Anecdotal of course, but I caught the same 17 inch brown in the same area of a stream I frequent 3 times last year over a few months. I actually felt bad the third time and skipped that corner the next time I went there. Dude needed a break.

I caught the same 20-ish inch hen 2 months apart and the first time I caught her was a difficult unhook. Very distinct looking fish and in the same corner, so I'm sure it was her. Again... felt bad the second time.

Also... the tiger Bill and I caught (Eskimo brothers!!!) over the past 2 years.

It's been out of the water 3 times now for photos and likely will be caught again. That thing needs to buy a Powerball ticket.

Finally... rainbows are known wussies. Flapper


.

Edited by user Wednesday, January 23, 2019 12:34:41 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

“Harvest eaters... release trophies.” -Gurth
Private correspondence at: jkschind "at" tds.net
Guillermo  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 3:04:11 PM(UTC)
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I do run into dead fish occasionally. A handful on January 6th in fact.

Some of the numbers suggest a survival rate of 95 or so percent, even 98 in one I think, but it depended on the method of fishing if I recall correctly.

I constantly toe a line between outright loving trout fishing while simultaneously feeling guilty when I catch what I consider to be too many fish. I’m also the guy who will lose sleep over inadvertently killing undersized brookies.
NBrevitz  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 6:42:34 PM(UTC)
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I don’t completely buy the release statistics. I’ve caught the same fish 4-5 times on a couple occasions, on treble hook equipped spinners. The data says that fish should be dead before I catch it 3 times.
"I fish because I love to: Because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness."
Gurth  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 6:55:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Guillermo Go to Quoted Post


I constantly toe a line between outright loving trout fishing while simultaneously feeling guilty when I catch what I consider to be too many fish. I’m also the guy who will lose sleep over inadvertently killing undersized brookies.



I'm similar although I've never thought I've caught enough fish and quit because of it. Laugh

Like I wrote earlier, I beat myself up pretty good for egregious poor handling (even when unavoidable) and always vow to do better – and I do.

I carry wire cutters with me and will clip a hook if it can't be removed without anything more than superficial damage to the trout.

Still remember the little 2 inch brown from a few years ago that made me vow to never again be without cutters on stream. RIP Sad

Would rather lose a lure (or a hook on a lure although I once had to clip all three hooks) than kill or maim a fish.

I don't see many dead trout at all. Maybe 2 or 3 ever, in all the times I've been out. Doesn't mean they aren't dying,

Obviously, YMMV and I respect that.
“Harvest eaters... release trophies.” -Gurth
Private correspondence at: jkschind "at" tds.net
JGF  
#28 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 9:17:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: NBrevitz Go to Quoted Post
I don’t completely buy the release statistics. I’ve caught the same fish 4-5 times on a couple occasions, on treble hook equipped spinners. The data says that fish should be dead before I catch it 3 times.


Most estimates of mortality are from a couple of percent under best case to maybe 10% under pretty bad conditions. If water temp is good, fish are reasonably well handled, you're not yanking out a deep hook, you didn't brain it, etc., the mortality rates are about 5% or a bit less (a 95% survival rate).

Catch a fish 3 times and there is about an 86% chance it's still swimming (.95^3). Double the mortality rate and there's still better than a 70% chance that fish is still swimming.

As for expecting to see the effects, there's too much noise to expect to see it. Say every fish in a reach is caught 3 times - a very high average, I'd assume - would you expect to see a 14% decline in the number of fish in a reach? Hell, I don't generally see much impact of harvest (where survival rate = 0) on my success. I do see a ton of variation - there are good days where you're catching everything in the streams (ha, you're probably still catching but a few % of them) and other days where I could swear that the stream is fishless.

Edited by user Wednesday, January 23, 2019 9:18:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Gurth  
#29 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 10:01:12 PM(UTC)
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It's likely that I'm deciphering the average in the wrong way, but here's my disconnect.

I know of a place that I fish where the density as measured by the dnr is 850 per mile.

That's all trout, so many are yoy and other small ones that I rarely ever catch. Probably half are these smaller ones? I might catch 3 or 4 trout under 6 inches per thousand in a given year.

So, if I go there 5 times in a season and catch 20 fish each time, 5-10 should perish.

Multiply that by another fisherman fishing that same mile, conservatively every other day and having similar results. Even though some days will see multiple fisherman and some will have none.

Just take the peak season of April through September and that's 90-180 dead trout of the catchable sized trout.

That's a massacre at the 10% rate.

I know I'm putting my bias against actual studies, but it's hard to believe that we wouldn't notice more dead trout and hard to believe that places wouldn't decline in numbers due to simple C&R mortality.

And that's not even accounting for the fish that are harvested.

Again… I get that I'm likely wrong or looking at this from the wrong direction, but still…


.

Edited by user Thursday, January 24, 2019 1:35:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

“Harvest eaters... release trophies.” -Gurth
Private correspondence at: jkschind "at" tds.net
rschmidt  
#30 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2019 2:13:25 AM(UTC)
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Good conversation here. I would point out that most studies are talking about probabilities, not averages and/or certainties. Further there are multiple probabilities given that most studies mention 3 or more variables, air exposure, hook type, water temps and playing fish. I have had people ask me why I reel fish in quickly. The answer is to not frenzy them to a cortisol shock and fatigue death. Some stuff I have read also says that rather than a quick release, a controlled release with the fish fully in the water decreases the probability of mortality. The rationale is that the fish is subject to higher rates of predation after immediate release from being exhausted. I am convinced that the only ones I handle that die from spinners with trebles are the bleeding structurally damaged or deep gill fukd ones. Pretty rare, but it does impact me too. Brookies and browns are more tolerant of C&R than bows or salmon from the stuff I read. The studies are generally using very small samples, that is inherently a flaw. And lastly, as impressed as I am with Shebs', Gurth's or Nick's angling prowess, most folks will never come in contact with the numbers of trout you do. A few studies have a finding that worm dunking, single hooking, beginners that have not learned how to handle a trout are also significant components of angler mortality. Fishing is inherently dangerous to the fish, but I can't stop. Happy Fishing!

Edited by user Thursday, January 24, 2019 2:14:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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